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• ���������¼�’s Gateway shines, as Education Minister announces rise in domestic enrolments
• Girls in STEMM 2025: Building circuits, racing cars and shaping tomorrow
• Hands-on engineering hits the road with ���������¼� Makerbus
• Meet Keira Moran: Engineering student and co-recipient of the 2025 Inspiring Student Award
• Honouring excellence: women engineers celebrated as distinguished Ada Lovelace Medal awarded

Neil Martin�� 00:00
Welcome to ���������¼� Engineering the Future podcast. Today we are talking about the importance of expanding the pipeline of professional engineers and retaining those already in the industry. We'll discuss how good leaders strive for greater equity, diversity and inclusion, to empower the next generation and deliver better engineering outcomes.

Rita Henderson�� 00:30
I think part of the challenge is engineering isn't explicitly taught at schools in the same way as maths and science technology, and so I think a lot of students who are coming through the school system don't have a good understanding of what it means to be an engineer, and it's been great to see some recent work, you know, by Engineers Australia and others, to really boost that understanding of what it means to be an engineer in schools, to try and engage at a very early stage.

Neil Martin�� 00:57
That's Professor Rita Henderson, Deputy Dean (Societal impact and Translation) at ���������¼�, whose work helps to promote equity, diversity and inclusion in the Faculty of Engineering. On Engineering the Future, we speak to academics and industry leaders who are embracing cutting edge ideas and pushing the boundaries of what is truly possible. Join us as we discover how world changing action starts with fearless thinking on Engineering the Future of Leadership.��

Hello and welcome to Engineering the Future of Leadership. My name is Neil Martin, and I'm a journalist and stem communicator working in the Faculty of Engineering at ���������¼�. Joining me today to discuss how the engineering profession itself may evolve over the next 30 years, is Professor Rita Henderson, Deputy Dean (Societal impact and Translation) in ���������¼� Faculty of Engineering. In that role, Rita delivers projects and initiatives within the faculty to achieve successful Equity, Diversity and Inclusion outcomes. She also leads the Algae and Organic Matter Lab, which has global reputation for research on water quality and water treatment. Hi, Rita.

Rita Henderson�� 02:17
Hi Neil. Thank you so much for having me.

Neil Martin�� 02:21
Also with us is Kath Richards, the Chief Engineer at Engineers Australia. In this position, Kath advocates for the engineering profession, both nationally and internationally, providing engineering insights to help deliver strategic initiatives of national importance. Previously, Kath served in the Royal Australian Navy, where she served with distinction for over 36 years before retiring from active service in December 2024 as a Rear Admiral. For her service, Kath has been awarded the conspicuous Service Cross and is a Member of the Order of Australia. Many thanks for being here, Kath.

Kath Richards�� 03:02
Thanks so much,Neil. Really appreciate it.��

Neil Martin�� 03:02
So normally, at this stage, I give a little technical introduction to the specific subject we're talking about, but I'd like to get straight into the discussion today and ask you both about the challenges being faced in terms of building a stronger pipeline for the next generation of engineers. And especially within that whether you think leaders, whether that's industry leaders, academic leaders or policy makers, need to make sure that engineering continues to evolve and becomes more diverse, so many more talented young people are excited and encouraged to be engineers. But maybe to set the scene, first of all, how would you assess the current state of engineering, particularly in Australia, and especially with regards to equity and diversity?

Kath Richards�� 03:53
It is a big topic, Neil. A really, really big topic. And I think my starting point is to think about the workforce as a whole, and to see engineering as a national capability. It is a workforce that we need in order to solve the complex�� problems that our nation faces, whether those are national security problems, economic problems or social and community problems. Engineering underscores all of those, if you like areas or sectors, because invariably, you need to use technology in some way, shape or form, to deliver the standard of living that modern Australians want, to deliver the security that they want to deliver, the economic prosperity. So that's everything from the water through to the power, through to the defence, through to the networks, the data, the infrastructure, the transport, the construction, the housing, it's everything. So of those 535,000 in that, if you like national capability mix, we've got well over 435, I think, thousand in the actual workforce. And when it comes to diversity, there are so many different ways that you can think about diversity, but we do know that it is a diverse workforce in terms of its cultural and ethnic backgrounds, because over 60% of all engineers are born overseas today. So it shouldn't be anything new that we're talking about engineering and diversity when it then comes to female participation, that particular angle of diversity, right? We do have a big challenge, because unlike other professions like medicine and law, which have achieved effectively parity with 50/50, when it comes to engineering, we've got 16% of engineers are women. Now, that's the big challenge that we've got to get after. We've got to move from 16 to 50, and to do that, we're going to need a whole lot of strategies and execution and hard work to be able to move. Now those other professions at various times, have been where we are today - and so it can be done. We've just got to get on and do that. And to do that, it's about the pipeline of girls, in particular, through secondary schooling, their choices around maths, physics, chemistry, those traditional sciences into then degrees, which then unlock these amazing jobs of impact. And that's really a narrative we've got to be able to sell to girls. And of course, we need to also help those other people in our workforce who come from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds in order to get into those jobs which are going to be productive and deliver outcomes for our economy.

Neil Martin�� 07:29
And you're at that coalface Rita at the at the university level.

Rita Henderson�� 07:33
Look, I completely agree with what Cath has explained there. I think you know, engineering is absolutely fundamental to our society and making sure that we have a diverse workforce, a diverse engineering workforce, is crucial. I was reading a really interesting report where it was explaining that engineering managers and particularly are ranked in the top 15 of highly male dominated occupations. And that didn't really surprise me from what I can see in both the work I do in industry and also the work I do at university. We do still struggle to bring women into engineering, and we consequently put a lot of effort into trying to increase, not just increase the numbers of women in engineering, but equally, trying to make sure that the culture and the environment is such that when we do go to the effort of bringing women into engineering, that they actually enjoy being part of the faculty, and so they are continue to be inspired and then want to stay on and remain in the sector.

Neil Martin�� 08:43
Do we have numbers in terms of the potential shortage of engineers? I was doing some research, and there seemed to be some numbers, 50000, 100000 even as many as 200,000 I don't know where you think we're at numbers wise, looking to the future.

Kath Richards�� 08:57
I think it was Churchill. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics, yes. So we always have to be mindful when we talk about shortages. The first way I think we can express shortages is to understand what��industry is telling us. And at Engineers Australia, we know that two thirds of our industry partners are telling us that they have fundamental shortages in engineers, and another third are telling us that they're critically short of engineers. Now all of our industry partners would very much like it if an engineer came fully minted with 10 years experience, and that's, of course, consistent with any other profession. But what we need to remember here is that engineers are made like all professionals. You make a professional by not only taking them through that high school system, then into that university system, and then through periods of internship and training, mentoring and guidance, and then eventually they can practice independently as a Chartered Professional. Just the same as you see it through law and you see it through medicine, and you see it through any other accounting, for example, other big professions. So we know that our industry would very much like that 10-year experienced engineer that can practice independently, and that's what we're short for. Now to get after that, we know that we probably need about 60,000 more engineers coming out of the pipeline over the next 10 years, and we've largely flatlined at about 17,000 coming out of our university sector for the past 10 years - and that's not keeping up with those more experienced engineers. About 70,000 are going to retire in the next 10 years, and of course, demand for engineers continues to go up. So it's not just those traditional sectors of mining and manufacturing and infrastructure and construction and defence - those are power generation. Yeah, those are those traditional engineering sectors. We also know, with the growth of data and networks and artificial intelligence, other sectors such as banking and finance, even retail, health services, age services - these are other sectors where that engineering problem solving is highly desired. So, statistics show that we need more engineers. We need supply to be fixed, and that means that pipeline through secondary schooling into tertiary education, and then retaining them through that 10-year period when they become, if you like, that, grown up engineer who can practice independently. That's what we've got to focus on here.

Neil Martin�� 12:17
And I guess if we go to the start of that process, the young children, and bring it back to the point that you were making Rita about the imbalance in the workforce in engineering. If you're trying to get 60,000 additional engineers, and you're ignoring potentially or young children, there's a big cohort of young children who are not as interested in becoming engineers. That's a problem right? At the start of the process, you've already got a potential problem.

Rita Henderson�� 12:47
Yeah, no, that's right. And I think part of the challenge is engineering isn't explicitly taught at schools in the same way as maths and science technology, and so I think a lot of students who are coming through the school system don't have a good understanding of what it means to be an engineer. Engineers aren't as visible in the workplace as doctors, as lawyers, and so that prestige, I think, isn't there in the same way. I think there's definitely a culture around amplifying, you know, all those great things that you talked about earlier, that an engineer, you know, does in the workplace. How do we communicate that to schools and get them ensued at a young age? And we see a lot of work that's been done around trying to, you know, encourage the stem engagement. There's been a big push on the science side, and it's been great to see some recent work, you know, by Engineers Australia and others, to really boost that understanding of what it means to be an engineer, you know, in schools, to try and engage at a very early stage. I think so that by the time students are starting to select those crucial subjects that are going to, you know, set them up for success if they did decide to do an engineering degree at university that they're already, you know, starting to think about what it might mean to be an engineer at those ages.

Neil Martin�� 14:07
Do you get feedback from school children to say, kind of why they might not be so interested? So that then you have a list, maybe then, of things that we can start to address?

Rita Henderson�� 14:17
No, that's right. And there have been some studies done on this. I think, you know, one of the top things, and again, this is from an Engineers Australia study, actually, you know, one of the main things was not being aware of what an engineer does. I think the next thing is that feeling of, well, I need to be excellent in maths. And of course, you know, maths literacy is very important. But do we need students who are excellent. And so I think we probably get a lot of students thinking, well, engineering is not for me, because I'm not top of the class in maths. And I think changing that narrative is very important.

Kath Richards�� 14:51
I think that's a really powerful point there, Rita. And to the issue about the attraction into the profession, in particular of young girls, we know that when people are familiar with an engineer, when they have an engineering role model and they can see what an engineer does, they are much more likely to follow into that profession. So as Rita said, one of the challenges of engineering is that, because it's ubiquitous, it's actually hidden, right? It's there in the background, everywhere, in the background. And the thing about engineering is that it's one of those amazing I'll call it things. I don't know a more accurate word than that. I'm surrounded by academics, so I'm probably going to get in a lot of trouble for that, but I'm speaking like an engineer, yeah? It's one of those amazing things that because it's everywhere in our modern life, we value its absence more than its presence. So if you got up this morning and your alarm clock didn't go off because there was a power outage, you'd recognise it. If you had a cold shower or no shower because there was no water, you'd recognise it. If when you went to the fridge to get the milk for your cereal, the milk was off because the power was off, you'd recognise it. But all of those things that are delivered by engineers, created by engineers, sustained by engineers, maintained by engineers, you don't even feel them, because they're so intricately connected with your everyday life and everyday experience, you only actually feel them when they're not there. People take it for granted. We take it for granted. So it's the young kids who have a mum or a dad or a cousin or an uncle or an elder sibling who is an engineer, who talks about the fact that they're keeping the water running, they're out at sea on a ship, right? Or they are working with power and distribution or networks or data, all of these things, then those young people go, Wow, that sounds pretty amazing, and that enables them the connection through. But I think Rita also makes a really good point about an elitist attitude to mathematics is not helpful. Mathematics is a language, and like any language, it takes persistence, it takes great teaching, it takes a level of repetition. And I like to think that maths is the same as going to the gym. It's one of those things you've got to practice, day in and day out to get stronger at. And what we do know, particularly when it comes to girls, is that when in that critical time of forming their identity between 10 and 14, and they feel failure. How girls sometimes feel failure when they get, say, four out of 10 for a maths test or even seven out of 10 for a maths test. If everyone else gets five out of 10 or eight out of 10, they go, I'm obviously not good enough. So we need to have these conversations with girls to say, it's okay, right? Keep going with maths. Maths does unlock these jobs of the future. It can be a bit of a tough language to learn, but it's not something just for the bright or the geeky people in a class, it's a normal everyday thing, and let's all lift that level of maths literacy, because then it unlocks science, and in unlocking science, it unlocks the practical application, and that's where engineering is the rubber that hits the road for delivery of solutions.

Neil Martin�� 19:24
So if I broaden it out, and you talk about getting girls more interested in maths, or coping with maths and continuing with maths, continuing and having role models to want to get into engineerin. When I look at the bigger picture, the question might be, why is that important? Why do we want more, what's good for engineering to have a broader base of people, more equity, more diversity? How would you answer that question Rita?

Rita Henderson�� 19:50
I think there's multiple things to think about there. I think it goes back to what I mentioned earlier, that we do have a shortage, and so, you know, we want to increase the workforce. I think there's a moral, you know, imperative as well. But I think it comes down to what you were saying earlier Kath, that engineering affects all of our society. And you know, the diversity of society is such that unless you have that representation, I guess in that engineering workforce, the solutions that are devised to solve some of these grand challenges are less likely to be fit for purpose, as opposed to if you have a diverse workforce. There's also a financial case. There's many other reasons that go along with that. There's now been a whole raft of literature that evidences that, particularly around thinking about when you get more into the leadership side. So I think there's been a lot of work around boards, for example. And when you have diverse boards, you start to see better performance. So I think there's the whole spectrum there, from, you know, fit for purpose solutions, innovation as well.��

Kath Richards�� 21:03
And I think important here to also recognise that the engineering profession in Australia is fundamentally diverse in terms of its ethnicity, its cultural and religious backgrounds. We know that over 62% of all engineers in Australia now are overseas born. So we are diverse culturally, ethnically, socially. When it comes to women, we only have about 16% of engineers are women, so we've got��these challenges here in appealing to girls, in helping them see what engineers do, and the impact that engineers have on communities and on our economy, of having those conversations around these are the jobs of the future, because engineers work in the big sectors.

Neil Martin�� 22:05
I think you've addressed some of them already, both of you those big challenges that exist, that you've kind of identified, that are in place to stop that pipeline, to stop those people being interested. How frustrated are you both that they exist and you're kind of working constantly to try to fix them I guess?

Kath Richards�� 22:25
I think first is we need to celebrate the amazing job that so many of our teachers are doing day in and day out in our secondary school system. And really big shout out for teachers. We need to put them on a pedestal. And there are so many teachers who are putting their heart and soul into helping kids to understand the language of maths, and we also need to put a huge shout out to the parents there who are encouraging both boys and girls to stick with maths, even though it can be hard, and it is like going to the gym for your brain, as you have to get the patterns down and you have to get the connections, and it's a way of thinking. But there's a lot of great work that's happening in our secondary school system, and we do need to champion that.��

Neil Martin�� 23:34
Rita, did you have anything to add on those challenges that are faced with the pipeline?��

Rita Henderson�� 23:40
Yeah, and I said, look, thank you. And I think, look, we've talked a lot about the pipeline and challenges to that. I think probably what I think it's also important to talk about is, you know, what happens when women do get into the workplace? Because I think pipeline doesn't stop at university. I think absolutely it keeps going 10 years that it then takes beyond university to continue that training. And I think we also need to address here is that we do see women leaving the workforce once they have received their university training. We see there are still challenges. I think within you know, even if you think about this, there's challenges getting women to university, then there's challenges there in terms of gendered biases, I think. And you know, concerns around are women really being heard in the environment? There's a lot of reports that talk about women experiencing bullying and harassment in the workplace, for example. And I think culture is therefore a very important factor here, and making sure that there is a safe culture where everybody does feel valued and included. And I think that's probably something that still needs attention. Certainly we've been thinking about this very much at the university side, and I think ���������¼� was one of the first first universities, for example, to publish its Gendered Violence Report. And I think having conversations around gendered violence, for example, is incredibly important to demonstrate that it's not acceptable, and to make sure that people do report instances of gendered violence, so that we have a culture where there's zero tolerance.��

Neil Martin�� 25:19
Is there any other specific kind of solutions that you think are really worth pursuing, that you're aware of, that you're doing within your own organisations to solve these challenges, either at the pipeline stage or in that kind of retention stage, I guess, give people some hope. I guess, yeah, you kind of doing some action to fix these, these issues.

Rita Henderson�� 25:42
I think there's no silver bullet. I think that's, that's the thing. I think it's a, I think it has to be a holistic approach that looks across pipeline so traction, that looks then at initiatives to ensure retention and then also develop,

Neil Martin�� 25:59
What would those initiatives be? What's the specifics of them?

Rita Henderson�� 26:03
Some of the things that we've been looking at in terms of retention, for example, are making sure, I think, the top level of an organisation that there's appropriate policies and governance in place. I think that's critical. You know, at ���������¼�, for example, we've got, you know, a range of policies around flexible work, around anti-racism, for example, that really sets that tone, thinking about what's acceptable and what's not, in terms of behavior and culture. So that that's one element. We have done surveys as well at ���������¼� in engineering, where we're looking at some of the barriers that women are experiencing in terms of their career and some of the aspects that have been gendered, I guess, in terms of the response has been women finding that they have a lot of additional work outside of their��workplace, and so this removes or reduces the amount of flexibility they have in order to pursue their career.

Neil Martin�� 27:03
Is there any other strategies that you'd like to mention, Kath?

Kath Richards�� 27:06
When you retain an engineer, you're actually keeping that person delivering for the national good. So we need to start and realise that what's a good policy around say, the retention of a woman after having children is actually good long term for the country - it's good for business. It means that you have put all of this effort into growing this person, literally growing an engineer through those key steps of their internship and their first few years, and they're now practicing, right? And now you can get the return on that. And to achieve that, perhaps you have to be a bit flexible for a few years, because you know what? Kids do get sick and school ends at 3.30 whether you like it or not. And of course, when you do that, it's not just about women benefiting. It's men benefiting. It's those migrant engineers who come in - they need to benefit as well. You know, all boats lift when leadership connects with the fact that people come to work and there's a lot else going on in their life. So have those conversations. And I think it's the willingness of leadership in sectors to have the conversations, even if some of those conversations are a bit confronting, have the conversation and work a way through it. And it's not about people imposing those solutions on business. It's really about that conversation between management and leadership with the engineering talent they've got, and figuring out a pathway to maximize that talent. Because when we do that, more people come into the profession, and more people stay in the profession: men, women, culturally, linguistically diverse, etc. We get more capability out. And that's what we've got to do to get after the shortages. We've got to get more capability out.

Neil Martin�� 29:21
We talk a lot about women there, bringing them into the workforce, but I guess there's other minority groups that we need to think about, especially in Australia, indigenous populations. What's the situation there Rita, with regards to bringing indigenous people into the engineering community, into the engineering industry?

Rita Henderson�� 29:38
I think there's so much that we have to learn from our indigenous Australian colleagues. And I work very closely with our Nura Gilli Centre at ���������¼�. And thinking of Indigenous Australians as the first engineers, I think, is incredibly important. We've had some wonderful student projects, for example, where we've actually, you know, made the boomerang that that David Unaipon actually designed, and that that was a fantastic experience to actually engage our students in delivering engineering technology that was designed by Indigenous Australians, I think, is really critical. So we're thinking about, well, how do we bring more indigenous Australians into engineering, and we run an indigenous Australian Engineering School with Engineering Aid at the moment, which is fantastic. But beyond that, how do we do more community engagement? So I think, I think that's really critical.

Neil Martin�� 30:33
Do you feel that there's any other specific barriers to entry for First Nations people?

Rita Henderson�� 30:40
I think many of our Indigenous Australians live in rural and remote communities. So I think that's one aspect. And I think giving opportunities and taking, you know, some of the things we do out to those communities is very important. And we had the ���������¼� maker bus actually driving through the middle of Australia, actually going to some of those schools. I think there's other things we can be doing in terms of, you know, scholarships, for example, to bring Indigenous Australians to universities. I think there's a whole range of different aspects that we could look at.

Neil Martin�� 31:13
There are there any success stories that you know of, either in specific areas of engineering or different countries, perhaps where you've seen some really good initiatives that have worked, and we can maybe take positives from and implement some of those strategies on a wider scale.

Kath Richards�� 31:33
I think when we look at our migrant engineers in particular, we know that we have some real challenges with our migrant engineers into this country, and 10s of 1000s of them are working below their level, and this is both men and women, right. And we need to understand why is that the case. And the first example of why we know we don't necessarily get migrant engineers in and working at level is because many Australian employers don't actually connect with their overseas experience. They want local experience, but it's very hard to get a job as an engineer without local experience. The first thing we know is that when industry is prepared to employ a migrant engineer, either in an adjacent area or under an internship arrangement, or is simply prepared to give them a break, then they get that local experience, and then they can move on and get higher, more challenging roles into the future. We know that when we've got a diverse workforce, if they've got great networks and great connections, then it turbo charges their ability to get a great job. So really supporting networking is fundamentally important, but also it's about making sure that their communication skills are grown and developed in the workplace. So when we have companies or programs or things which help to develop and grow those communication skills, and then we combine it with respect for the experience, and then we combine it with the networks. Bang. You have a really capable engineer. So those are things that we know work.

Neil Martin�� 33:50
We're talking about equity, diversity, inclusion. I wanted to throw something into the mix. There's recently, seems to be an increase in pushback to EDI, whether that's nationally or in in other certain countries. Do you find that worrying, both of you, and is there a continued education effort that that shows is still needed? With regards to EDI?

Rita Henderson�� 34:14
What I have found since being in this role is I've learned an awful lot from my Indigenous Australian colleagues, for example, and the way they think about equity. So I'm still learning. So I think that continued learning that open discussion is very important, first of all. I also, in a way, some of the backlash that you mentioned makes me think that actually, there must have been dramatic progress in order for there to be backlash, because you know, when you have progress, people start to feel uncomfortable because things are shifting. So I think that that is a sort of natural process, in a way. And if you look back over time, you know through history, you know this isn't something that's just become a recent issue. This is a this is something that's been an issue for hundreds of years, from, you know, from millennia, particularly from a Western perspective, I think that, you know, there's always going to be that ebbing and flowing. And I think we're just at the moment, we're at a particular point in time, and the story is going to continue.

Kath Richards�� 35:15
So I think unless we get everyone in the tent and focused on what needs to be done. We're not going to deliver the solutions that we need to in the timeframe we've got such that we're leaving a better Australia for our kids. So I think that's the first way that I sort of navigate my way through what is, I guess, this backlash, just to augment what Rita has said there. We're all going to be better if everyone is respected. Everyone has got something to bring and there's no one right way, there isn't. So you have to navigate your way through these socially complex things, and I don't think we should feel threatened by them. And I continue to learn from others. I continue to be told which I quite like, actually, “Nah, that's not gonna work”. Or “yeah, that's gonna work”. “But, oh, we tried that and it failed” and you go, fantastic. So part of being a great engineer is about being open to change, because our world continues to change around us. And I think what Rita was saying is that often when there is change, it moves people into a position of being uncomfortable. But I've lived my entire life being manifestly uncomfortable all the time, even to the fact that I'm here in a podcast feeling fundamentally uncomfortable. So I think it's time to embrace the discomfort that change brings, because through that, we actually grow, and when we grow, we invariably deliver something that is better for those that are going to follow us, and that has to be the motivation of any profession. It's certainly the motivation of the amazing engineers that I interact with every day across every sector of the economy. And the best people, I think, are the ones that embrace that. The best people when it comes to delivering an engineering output are the ones that do embrace that discomfort. Get comfortable with being uneasy and say, what can I learn and how could I make things better for others? It's not a game of winners and losers. It's a game of, how do we get everyone here into a win-win arrangement? And you can do it. And there are amazing companies out there that are really kicking big goals because their leadership and management pay attention to the detail and to the dark corners of their organisation, where behavior that doesn't respect or value the contribution of other people who may be different to the majority, those dark corners where that behavior lurks. When leadership shines a light on that, then it unmasks it, and it enables people to tackle it head on and address the friction and make it better for everyone.

Neil Martin�� 39:00
That might lead me very nicely onto my final question. It's called engineering the future, so I'm going to throw it 30 years ahead. How would you like the engineering industry, engineering education as well, to look in 30 years time?

Rita Henderson�� 39:16
It's another big one.��

Kath Richards�� 35:18��
It is a great one, isn't it?

Rita Henderson�� 39:21
I think, look, one thing we haven't mentioned today is the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And there's still so much work to do in that space, and engineers are so well situated to tackle the challenges that the Sustainable Development Goals bring. So they all finish in 2030 so thinking beyond that, to my mind, starts me thinking about, well, what's next, beyond the sustainable development goals. So we had the Millennium Goals, now the Sustainable Development Goals, what's next? And I think looking at how we frame those, and the role of engineers and in framing some of those goals, and looking at how we tackle those is very important. So that's, that's certainly one aspect. And then I think, you know, taking a step back then and looking at our students who are coming through in the next generation is really about, how are we setting them up to work collaboratively, not just as engineers, but beyond, you know, with other fields. How do we bring everybody together to bring all those perspectives together that are going to be needed in order to solve some of those really complex challenges that the world's going to be facing in 30 year’s time,

Kath Richards�� 40:32
You get the final word, wow, in 30 years’ time, I just think we'll have another big laundry list of complex problems. I don't think it's going to get any less complex. I think it's going to get more complex because our knowledge of how things work and how things are connected is going to grow. And there are some things which are actually going to stay the same in 30 years’ time. You're still going to need ethical decision making, you're still going to need people who can understand and critically evaluate and critically think their way through problems. You're still going to need people who think long term, not short term to get to your point, Rita, You're still going to need people who deliver solutions, which connect in with their communities. And my vision, I guess, for the profession, when it comes particularly to this issue of equity, diversity and inclusion, is that like our medical colleagues, like our legal colleagues, the engineering workforce is at 50% female participation. We've seen it in other professions, and there's no reason why engineering can't get there.

Neil Martin�� 41:52
Well, it's absolutely fascinating to hear your expert thoughts on this topic. Kath Richards, many thanks for joining me.

Kath Richards�� 41:59
It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me here today.

Neil Martin�� 42:02
And Professor Rita Henderson, it's been a pleasure to talk to you as well.

Rita Henderson�� 42:05
Oh no, thank you. It's been a great conversation.

Neil Martin�� 42:08
Unfortunately, that's all we've got time for for this episode and this series. Thank you for listening. I've been Neil Martin, and I hope you'll join me again very soon for the next series of our engineering the future podcast. You've been listening to ���������¼� engineering the future podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to our series to stay updated on upcoming episodes. Check out our show notes for details on in person events, panel discussions and more fascinating insights into the future of engineering.